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Heatmiser or other?

Last post 07-03-2009 1:21 AM by simon.willet. 6 replies.
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  • 02-16-2009 12:09 AM

    Heatmiser or other?

    Now's the time to engage the use of a thermostat or few.

    My vailent boiler & gledhill HW store is running on a timeclock with no thermostats and my gas bills are a little interesting.

    What are the recommended thermostats?

    I realise it's a little bit of an open question but I have run all the wiring for the temp sensors (in every room), have 240VAC actuator control for each individual room (currently permanently on), mains and LV wiring for a thermostat position in each room.

    Currently the boiler, h/w store thermostat and timeclock are all 240VAC hardwired with no webbrick link but before I look at what to use with what I need to work out a thermostat solution.

    I've looked at the heatmiser range, look good but wondered it anyone knows if I can link directly into the gateway?
    Ideally I'd like to use the analogue round dial with the temp display but it doesn't appear to be interfaceable - anyone know of something like that that could be used?

    Should I be looking at using their NetMonitor+ and talking to that via the gateway?? or gateway direct to all the thermostats??

    Background:
    I have 3 manifolds with a total of 19 actuators and a similar number of thermostat placement areas.
    With each of the manifolds there is one standard pump + one additional pump to assist the manifolds and the boiler pump, which is managed by the call-4-heat from the h/w stat.
    I also have a solar heating system into the h/w store controlled by a Resol which I am looking to link in.

    Thoughts?

    Cheers, Ian.

  • 02-18-2009 1:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

    Ian,

    Let me just summarise:

    • You have a cat5 cable for a temperature sensor in every room.
    • You have actuators to control the heating in each of these rooms.


    The gateway can coordinate a multi zone heating setup. In this each zone has to have a temperature sensor, and if it is to be individually controlled an actuator (typically wax actuator) to turn the heating in that zone on/off. Zones can be grouped into zone groups where there is common equipment shared by the set of zones e.g. a manifold valve and pump.


    Each zone has a schedule of target temperatures and a number of options associated, which allow zones to be enabled/disabled, maintain a minimum temperature, etc.

    On the other side (heatsources) the multi zone heating setup allows a combination of heatsources (boiler, solar, heatpump). These are switched on depending on zone demand and managed to ensure efficient operation. For example the firing of a boiler can be suppressed if the hot water has been heated using heat from thermal solar panels during the day.

    To answer your question regarding your requirements, you do not need thermostats (heatmiser or alike) in every room. What you do need:

    • WebBrick control over your boiler (instead of timer)
    • WebBrick control of the 240V zone actuators (best done using the WebBrick 8SSR)
    • WebBrick control over manifold pumps
    • A WebBrick Gateway to manage the heating solution and provide a web interface that gives you easy control over zone heating schedules, etc.


    I hope I interpreted your post correctly and answered your query.

  • 02-25-2009 12:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

    Ian,

    If you want to cut your gas bills then you need to be running a condensing boiler in condensing mode - primarily you need the hydraulics arranged suitably and outside temperature compensating controls.

    From your details and by my calculations you have at least 8 pumps, that seems excessive (low loss headers? primary secondary pumping? floor area?) - assuming (very conservatively) these are running at average output and are grundfos ups15/50 equivalents then you are pouring 400W into this lot for many hours a day say 16h: 16 x 0.4 x £0.12 = £0.96 every day, £350 a year just for your pumps!! Assuming they are all necessary look at  Alpha2/Magma pumps, lower costs  less noise etc

    After that you can use the webrick etal to centralise control of your noncore zones, you can mount the brick temp sensors together with a rotary encoder to simulate a dial stat.

    Whilst using the brick facilities can make control more centralised and convenient it will not in itself gain you efficiency just the ability to turn things off which you can equally do with TRV's and a bit of walking about!  You also need to take care to provide proper interlock with the boiler otherwise the resulting short cycling on the boiler stat will reverse any gains.

    What model boiler? If it's an ecotec then you have a world of ready posibilities!

    Are you using UFH,  rads or a combination?  Is the thermal store (torrent re?) supplying the CH from the tank or just the DHW. Why a store?

    The necesarry operating temperature of the store will seriously curtail the efficiency of your solar panels if charging the store direct, tubes would offer a slightly greater yield but not a paying proposition!  ??Resol deltasol bs/?

    Simon

     

  • 03-02-2009 10:47 PM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

    Simon,

    thanks for the detail.

    I(we) have installed a new Vailant ecotech 428, Torrect 277RE, 3 manifolds (1 pump per), 1 boiler pump and 1 manifold assist pump to distribute the thermal store water to the manifolds.
    I'm using the store, boiler and manifolds in one big loop. I have solar panels supporting the tank. This allows me to feed the towel rads & drying room in the summer easily with heat from the solar panels (Resol Deltasol BSPlus)
    The 3 manifolds have a UFH & radiators (rad appropriately oversized)

    I've put one heatmiser thermostat in for now, which has already 1/2 the gas used this week and interestingly my pumps efficiency must be pretty ok as the electric has dropped £3.

    As part of the wundafloor UFH system which I am pleased with I selected to use their wiring centres, which means I do not have to worry about the manifold pump control.

    At the moment, the boiler is obviously heavily utilised as there is not much sun, but the few days we've the last couple of weeks, the store has been sitting at ~65deg when I get home in the evening from a ~40 in the morning.

    Current plan is to have the bricks, control each actuator and the effective timeclock for the boiler. In order to do this I need to get the serial interface from the Resol connected (RS232) and temp sensors in the thermal store directly - I'm assuming I'm going to handle all this in the gateway.

    Taking all this and your advise into consideration, I'm thinking it boils back down to the problem of what control panel to put in each room. So many options. Those rooms without a control panel could have a rotary encoder as your mention.

    Therefore what are the current favourites for control panels? I'm getting an N810 tomorrow, I have iTouches which work well, both of which are floating - I've yet to experiment with mounting them in the wall though.

     Ian.

  • 03-06-2009 12:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

    Hi Ian,

    I'm going to to sound like I'm being very critical to start with, but I hope you'll see that it is intended constructively.

    Firstly the hydraulic layout/design:

    I'm assuming the manifolds are in parallel with each other and they return to the torrent.  In terms of efficient running the thermal store coupled to the UFH and solar systems is a complete mismatch.  the thermal store requires a temperature of 20 deg plus over the DHW demand temperature an so when charged will usually be set to 80deg (where it has proportionally higher enviromental losses than a DHW cylinder at 55-60deg) charging this store runs your boiler straight up and out of condensing mode 10-15% efficiency loss at a stroke!

    The UFH is designed to use a low flow temperature on a basic sytem this is fixed somewhere around 50 deg (an actively mixed system will adjust somewhwere between 25 - 55 deg based on outside temp) so your system is taking water at (allowing for some store stratification) 70-75 deg from the store and feeding it to your heating at somewhere near double the required temperature!  Your boiler will be most efficient producing a flow temperature at 40deg and below (which it has the controls to do) which it could then feed straight to the manifolds, instead you are wasting gas and experiencing extra pipe and store losses by jacking the temp up to store levels and then mixing it back down - rather like driving a car with accelerator hard down and controlling speed with the brakes!!

    With regard to the solar system - once again, you are asking the panels to charge into a high temperature store, all heat sources will be more efficient the lower the flow temp, this is particularly true of solar and heat pumps and is basic physics and you are severely curtailing your solar yield.

    You may be wondering why thermal stores where invented at all? They allow a traditional boiler to run flat out  into the store (no cycling -  turning on and off) the most efficient mode for a heat source.  This was facilitated by using a small boiler, user demand would be satisfied from the store and then the boiler would catch up. I dont't know the size of your property but 28kW sounds more than double that necessary for a 250 litre store

    Traditionally you would find stores in commercial environments where providing boilers suffucient to meet peak demand was economically unviable - small stores crept into the domestic market in order to provide mains pressure hot water prior to 'megaflo' type cylinders being allowed in this country. Stores do have the odd niche advantage but....

    So having been so negative about your shiny new system what could you do? 

    1.  Well the first thing I would do is disconnet your space heating from the store and couple it to the boiler via a low loss header along with the thermal store which would require a loading pump. Your boiler has twin stats (DHW and heating) assign them approriately.  You should see an instant 20% saving in space heating gas consumption. 

    2.  Fit your boiler with a VRC430 controller and a VR61 interface to pumps. 10-15% saving

    3. Fit a motorised mixing valve to your heating supplies (dial open the wax valves on the manifolds), driven by the VR61 to realise the full flexibility of the system and smooth out overheating spikes caused by store charging.

    4. Depending on size of house (zoning requirements) your desire for independant control and the nth degree of efficiency provide independant mixing valves to each manifold and use the Vailant 630/2 range of controllers instead of 430 and 61

    5. Install a DHW preheat cylinder (feeding the store HE) driven by your panels and controlled by VR68 module that integrates seamlessly into the 430/61 bus and interface (630/2 also has solar controllers) or more sensibly swap the store for a pressurised solar cylinder

    I suggest these options in cost benefit order.

    Secondly with regards to controls:

    The bricks are, as dicussed here before, ideal to implement simple on off controls to manifold acuators or zone valves, based on schedules, one wire temp sensors or external stats of choice via DI/AI. Valve outputs may obviously be conditional on any other brick inputs as well.  This type of control would sit on top of and independant from the types I have discussed above.  Use of a gateway would allow further complexity to the timing, conditional structure and remote accesability of the valve outputs.

    This type of control may be redily integrated into or form the implementation of traditional 'Honeywell Sundial' type control systems which are simple cascade on/off controls (in this country) usually at mains voltage and load currents. These type of controls are however far from the state of the art and give away 20-40% of potential system efficiency.

    Ian with regard to the solar controls - I am not familar with Resol, but a quick gander at the literature does not reveal the presence of any RS232 port let alone it being featured with a process interface!

    They have a system called Vbus - a proprietry bus (probably very similar to everybody elses eg Vailant  Ebus) system It probably uses voltage signalling in one direction and current loop in the other. Their datalogging could probably be configured to export some parameters to a PC  and hence into a gateway but it would be messy. I didn't find any convertors on the site, as you seem to imply in th eother thread?

    I'm not quite sure what you wish to control with respect to the solar - surely you wish it to charge at any oppotunity whilst allowing it to operate within its own safety limits?  Solar systems can generate VERY high temperatures on clear sunny days and they are not to be messed with unless you are very sure of the implications.

     As a final point for Andy and Co - there exists an open standard for heating controls, which has been bought into by a significant number of large players, the 'lite' version of which might be simply  implemented from a webbrick - I can send you a copy of the standard if it might be of interest?

     Regards

    Simon

  • 06-23-2009 10:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

     Simon

    I'm not aware of this open standard, we have been doing some pretty major implementations lately some for boiler and heatsource manufacturers.  As always interested in standards !

    I reckon we ought to describe our current implementation of HVAC, an outline of which can be found on our documentation site:

    http://docs.webbrick.co.uk/eventinterfaces/HVAC.html

    When I get a moment I should upload some screen shots of the solar integration and remote diagnostics.

     

    Regards

     

     

    Andy

     

  • 07-03-2009 1:21 AM In reply to

    Re: Heatmiser or other?

    Andy

    Look at http://www.opentherm.eu/

    Am not at home at the moment to dig out the spec file but you can request one from them.

    The 'lite' implementation could very easily be implemented at brick level.

    The latest version 3.X  introduces details of a hub/gateway which could be implemented with brick/gateway and provide some very rich functionality.

    As ever the British (domestic work) market place suffers from its usual technophobic installers making very little demand for this equipment and therefore to my knowledge the only readily available boilers are from Keston(gulp!!) geminox and veissman's 100 series - the very laudable ideals of Open therm seem to be being overtaken by manufacturer specific bus protocols of very similar functionality eg vaillant e-bus, worcester and gloworm have relatively recently launched.

    Vaillants comprehensive and mature system already far outstrips OT but wiser heads than mine may be able to determine if worcester and gloworm are based on OT (they aren't telling!!)

    Regards

    Simon

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